BY AVELLINA BALESTRI

Avellina Balestri: Tell us a little bit about yourself and your background.  

Anne Ammundsen: During my working life I was an officer in the Women’s Royal Naval Service, which sadly no longer exists.  I did my training at the Royal Naval College in Greenwich, South London, where organisation and discipline were top of the agenda.  It was a wonderful experience to live and work in such an amazing building, and eat all our meals in the Painted Hall.  A very special experience. I then went overseas, with the Ministry of Overseas Development, and worked for the Solomon Islands Government in the South Pacific.  I was there when they celebrated Independence, in 1978, which was a ten-day-long celebration, and another special experience.  I met my future husband while in Honiara, Guadalcanal, and since he was a diplomat my life was forever, thereafter, one of moving from country to country.  We were in Tehran during the American Hostage Crisis and the start of the Iran/Iraq war, but that was not one of the highlights of our lives!

Avellina Balestri: What first inspired you to research your ancestry, and at what point did Charles Asgill become a major focus for you?  

Anne Ammundsen: It saddens me to say that my father was my genealogical inspiration, but not until after he died – prior to which I thought his dusty files on ancient relatives rather boring.  After his death I inherited all his work, and spent a long time sorting through those dusty files. It made me realise that history and ancestry is important.  I was at the point of researching a pot of gold, buried by an American ancestor at the start of the War of Independence, when my attention was drawn away to a redcoat ancestor I had never heard of before.  That pot of gold was never found because Captain Robert Hicks (an unsung hero of the Battle of Guildford Courthouse) died before revealing the location of that pot!  What followed, in my life, has meant that I got no further than to discover that the likely current location of the gold is under a car park in North Carolina!  You see, a letter arrived from a distant cousin on my maternal side, telling me the rudiments of the life of Charles Asgill.  At that time my mother was still alive and I turned to her for help.  She too had never heard of him!  So began my research! 

Avellina Balestri: Give us a brief overview of Asgill’s life and near brush with death during the American Revolution.  

Anne Ammundsen: While many claim that Asgill is a little-known personality of the post capitulation era of American history, my own searches revealed much about him. I don’t for one minute believe he has been forgotten in America.  It is sad to say that he most definitely has been forgotten in his homeland of England though.  George Washington gave Asgill such a bad reputation as a cad and a liar (in order to save his own reputation, which he did most successfully) that Asgill’s countrymen decided that he was definitely not one of us to be celebrated. So he has been forgotten and overlooked here in the UK.  Which is sad.  He was a very likeable young man who Washington decided to send to the gallows in reprisal for the death of Joshua Huddy, murdered in a series of tit-for-tat killings between Patriots and Loyalists. Queen Marie Antoinette was very instrumental in saving him from this destiny, and consequently during the course of his life he was a ‘hero’ in France.  There many books and plays were written about his ‘brush with death’.  Because there was no television or films in that era, plays became a major source of entertainment, and I have often wondered whether Asgill himself ever watched any of them – he was fluent in the French language because his mother was of French Huguenot descent.  Those plays were a mixture of fact and fiction, and mostly the latter.  For instance, one has Asgill marry the daughter of Joshua Huddy, the man for whom his own life was destined to atone, and another has him marry a descendant of a certain William Penn!  Very fanciful. The truth is that he was held in close captivity, under harsh conditions, and any opportunity for romance was most definitely not remotely possible. In fact, he was so badly treated that he nearly died during his six months of imprisonment, awaiting death by hanging.  Indeed, he wrote to Washington on two occasions, from Chatham, New Jersey, pointing out the ‘Horrors’ of his captivity and also letting Washington know that he was close to death because of the manner in which he was being treated in confinement.  This is not the story George Washington tells – far from it.  Washington paints himself as Asgill’s saviour!

Avellina Balestri: You told me that the true hero of the story was a gentleman named Gordon. Do tell us more about him.  

Anne Ammundsen: I could wax lyrical on Major James Gordon, of the 80th Regiment of Edinburgh Volunteers, until the cows come home!  I think he is the most delightful man I have come across in history.  He has been written about, but in my view not nearly enough. Someone needs to write his biography, he is so special. He put others before himself at all times.  He looked after Asgill, in captivity, better than any man on earth at that time could have done.  There is not a shadow of doubt in my mind that Asgill would have died, not at the gallows as it turned out, but in captivity in Chatham, had not James Gordon looked after him so well.  Gordon was the officer commanding British prisoners, and he accompanied Asgill to his place of execution. During those six months he did everything he possibly could to see to Asgill’s wellbeing.  He even planned an escape, in the event the call to the gallows came, eliciting the help of local loyalists.  He never revealed the details of that plan, nor the names of his helpers, and those details went to the grave with Gordon, who, so sadly, never returned to his loving family and the Scotland which meant so much to him.  He died of dropsy in Manhattan just before the last ship of defeated British prisoners were sailing from New York back to their homelands.  Even Asgill himself was never apprised of the full details of the escape plan, so he could not reveal them, even after Gordon’s death.

Avellina Balestri: Have you experienced some push back in American Revolution circles when dealing with the story, since it deals with Washington’s questionable behavior towards young Asgill?

Anne Ammundsen: I think it is one of the most delightful aspects of the research I have undertaken that not one single American has been anything but helpful towards my questions and queries and every single one of them has gone out of their way to assist me. Well, on second thoughts, there was just one who was fiercely defensive of Washington. Oh, yes, and a bunch of them on Wikipedia who protect the great man there.  I have always been nervous on this score – after all, George Washington is George Washington – a man who achieved so much during his lifetime and has a special place in the hearts of all Americans.  But modern Americans do seem interested in the truth, and if that truth reveals Washington sacrificing a young British officer’s reputation, to advance his own, well, they have offered me all the assistance I had hoped for.  Without that help, I would not have found the truth.

Avellina Balestri: What made you decide to write your book, and why did you feel this particular story was important to retell his story?  

Anne Ammundsen: While I have no formal qualifications to be an author – I’m neither an academic nor a writer – I do love talking and on this occasion my fingers did the talking and I could natter on until the cows come home on this, my favourite subject!  Yes, I have bored endless people over the past two decades!  My family especially!  To the point that I wondered if my daughter, in particular, would even read the copy of my book given to her.  To my astonishment she not only read it quickly, but thoroughly enjoyed it, telling me that my style was easy to read, and even though she knew the story beforehand, it still held much interest for her.  I have had quite a lot of nice feedback, which has been so encouraging.  As to why – well, my birth-sign is Libra – the sign of the Scales of Justice, and here I saw a major injustice towards a man I am as equally proud to call an ancestor as I am to call Captain Robert Hicks one of my clan.  I had no choice but to Set The Record Straight.

Avellina Balestri: What were your favorite and least favorite parts of the researching and writing process? 

Anne Ammundsen: The entire process was one of major setbacks/brick walls, and wonderful breakthroughs. It was the most exhilarating and at the same time scary roller-coaster-ride of my life!  Of course the setbacks were difficult to cope with – documents which could not be found, not matter what lengths were undertaken.  People who could not be found to prove points I wanted to prove – a certain Colonel Gregory remains elusive to this day.  But then again, a portrait of Asgill’s beautiful wife has been revealed for the first time, and the place of Asgill’s confinement is now known as clearly and definitely as is ever likely to be the case. It is hard to convey what an experience it has been because it has been filled with elation and despair in equal measure! The pinnacle of my success though, was to find Asgill’s 18-page letter written in 1786, four years after his ordeal in America. Without that letter there would have been little point in re-writing the Asgill Affair which has been aired fairly regularly for two and a half centuries.

Avellina Balestri: If you had the chance to convey a message to Asgill, Gordon, Washington, or any other historical character, what would it be?  

Anne Ammundsen: To Asgill I would say “thank you for being with me on this journey for I know that there have been pivotal moments when you somehow inspired me to look where I might never have thought to look.  I hope I have done you justice and that your reputation will be restored”.  To Gordon I would say, “history has not rejoiced you as much as it should.  You were special.  I loved getting to know you and I thank you from the bottom of my heart for all you did for Charles Asgill. He wanted ‘the world to know’ how precious you were, but his words had to wait 233 years before they were printed.  I hope I have righted that wrong now”.  To George Washington I would say “this was not your finest hour.  You deceived posterity with your version of events to save your own reputation.  You were a man of honour too, and I suspect you did not sleep easy by ruining another man’s reputation for the sake of your own”.  To Queen Marie Antoinette I would say “thank you for your empathy towards the mother of an innocent enemy officer who was facing execution. As a mother yourself, you saw her anguish and were so instrumental in saving that man’s life”.  To the comte de Vergennes, the French Foreign Minister in 1782, I would say “your letter to George Washington, urging him to spare young Asgill, is a masterclass in diplomacy.  As a Frenchman should I be surprised?  No, definitely not, but your letter was brilliant”.  

Avellina Balestri: How have you gone about publicizing yourself and your works?  

Anne Ammundsen: This has been the most difficult aspect of all.  I have already explained that I have no innate qualifications to have done what I have done.  So, now the book is published I am left floundering and totally out of my depth.  I am completely on my own on this and I have achieved a smattering of published reviews, but other than that I await another review in The Grenadier Gazette, the Grenadier Guards being the present day regiment which was once The First Regiment of Foot Guards (Asgill’s regiment).  I have sent a copy of my book to Queen Camilla, who is Colonel of the Regiment of the Grenadier Guards, and I hope it found its way to her since she is interested in history and has a Book Club of her own.  I have approached a very famous actor/screenwriter, who showed a little interest in this story fifteen years ago, in the hope that this incredible story might one day be told on the small or even large silver screen.  I suspect that at my advanced age I will be long dead if that ever happens though! I would like to thank Helen Tovey, Editor of Family Tree magazine, for interviewing me, https://www.family-tree.co.uk/how-to-guides/charles-asgill-setting-the-record-straight which I think helped in the whole process. 

Avellina Balestri: What are some of the main things you would like readers to take away from your works? 

Anne Ammundsen: I think the main thing is that recorded history has not always got it right, so be open to new findings and accept them as the truth.  In today’s world everything must be sourced, so it is hard to veer off the straight and narrow.  People are fond of criticising Katherine Mayo’s book, General Washington’s Dilemma (the only book devoted to the Asgill Affair, prior to my own).  In 1938, when this was published, it seems sources were not so essential. Personally I think she did an incredible piece of research and just because she lacks sources to me means nothing. I have so often found just exactly where her sources lie. Nor did she have the benefit of the internet in her day.

Avellina Balestri: What is some advice you would give aspiring authors, especially those focusing on historical and genealogical research projects? 

Anne Ammundsen: Passion, and a belief in your project is the key I think.  If you are determined and passionate you will eventually win through, but be prepared for the journey to be a long one. Getting published is one of the biggest hurdles to overcome. 

Avellina Balestri: Plug your socials, published works, and current projects!  

Anne Ammundsen: If only I could, or knew how, but being a one-trick pony, and being well beyond the age of social media aficionados in my 80th year, this has been my main stumbling block.  It is a shame that this is so, given my joy at finally being published. So, I hope this interview will inspire readers to obtain a copy of The Charles Asgill Affair: Setting the Record Straight here:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Charles-Asgill-Affair-Setting-Straight/dp/0788429086/

Thank you, Avellina Balestri, for the great interest you have shown in my work and for promulgating a redcoat’s story from the British perspective.  I didn’t know American Loyalists still exist, so, as they say, you learn something new every day!